What do you think, Dr. Wright? >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you, Molly. Okay, friends. Oh, I wanted him to just go on. Um I uh but he Dr. Wright graciously spoke briefly on a very important passage in James so that it would give us an opportunity to have a different kind of conversation, a theological conversation on um whatever topic. He has no idea what I’m getting ready to ask him, okay? Um full disclosure. Uh this has been a real gift throughout today and I’m so grateful to you. Um here’s where I want to start. Hm. You called your book on the cross the day the revolution began. It’s an important book, friends. Most of us weren’t taught that the cross was a revolution. We were taught it was a transaction. What revolution started on Good Friday? >> Yeah. Throughout Jesus’ public career there’s a kind of a shadowy theme which is going on underneath and behind all the obvious things like the parables and the healings and so on, which is the underlying battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness, call it what you will. We heard you We should get your vacation Bible school people here cuz they now know all about it. The The The ancient The ancient dragon of chaos over against the order which God wants in his world. Same thing. And yes, it does land in Romans 16 and several other places. Um so that what you see when Jesus first comes into a synagogue and says the kingdom of God is at hand is immediately all sorts of dark powers start ganging up on him. There are people with strange mental spiritual disorders shrieking at him in the synagogues. There are Pharisees plotting at him and and criticizing him. There are Herodians who want Herod to be king, not Jesus. And what are we talking about here? And you can see the gospel is the moment when all those different, and I’ve only just mentioned some of them, different forces and powers seem to be ganging up, coming together. And even one of Jesus’ own closest associates gets it radically wrong and and and betrays him. And Jesus’ own family don’t understand him. So, as we go through the gospel story, it’s as though, yes, the kingdom of God is arriving, but all the things which are about the kingdom of darkness are arriving as well. And you see this then Well, I mean, think of the temptation story at the beginning of Matthew and Luke, where the Satan says to Jesus, “If you are the son of God, make these stones to become bread.” Then come forward to Good Friday, and when Jesus is on the cross, the mockers at the foot of the cross say, “If you are the son of God, come down from the cross.” It’s the same thing. This is the dark battle with the tempter which has gone on all the way through. And what Jesus’ opponents, and it seems even the dark power itself, the Satan, um don’t understand is that actually Jesus is charged by God with this scriptural vision that evil will do its worst to God’s anointed and will that will thus be exhausted. And the proof that evil is exhausted is of course the resurrection. But the resur- I mean, nobody was standing around at the foot of the cross on the end of Good Friday or on Holy Saturday saying, “Well, that was very nasty, but at least he’s defeated evil, so now the world’s a better place.” They really, really weren’t. Um when Jesus rose from the dead, then they looked back to the cross and they said, “If he’s defeated death, he must have defeated evil as well.” So, the revolution is the kingdom of God overcoming the kingdom of darkness. And you see that once you see that, it’s all over the place in the New Testament. And it doesn’t mean that all evil stops dead then, because it’s we’re talking about something being launched, something being inaugurated, into which we then get to be part of it. But it’s a huge topic and a quite scary topic, actually. And the closer you get to it, um the more, as it were, dangerous it becomes, because evil is real and powerful. And uh this is why we say our prayers. This is why you pray, “Deliver us from evil.” >> I’ve been doing this with him all day. And there’s a part of me that wants him to just look at me and say, “I don’t know.” >> If you want to do that, the question to ask is who’s going to win the World Cup? >> I think there’s a Look at this. Look at this. >> I I don’t know. The only thing I can tell you is it won’t be England. >> Football is catching on here. >> Mhm. >> Notice my use of the term. >> Uh yeah, I know. >> a disagreement over words. >> Yeah, absolutely. It’s a good example. >> Uh-huh. >> Football versus soccer, yeah. Mhm. >> This is deep stuff here, friends. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. I want to take you in a different direction. Some of my friends here are walking through real pain in this season. They’re not asking a theoretical question about suffering. Their pain is personal. They they may be questioning where God even is. What What would you share to them in this moment? >> The Bible never offers a quick fix answer. There are times when somebody in dire need calls out to God or ask somebody to pray with them, when almost immediately or sometimes immediately something dramatic happens and the situation is resolved. That’s rare as a pastor, that’s rare. Many times as a pastor I’ve wanted to be able to pray a prayer with somebody and have all the problems vanish. So, you know that that doesn’t normally happen. >> Not normally. >> Yeah, not normally. Normally it takes a while and takes some probing into what else is going on and goodness knows what. But the Bible doesn’t have an answer to why is there suffering. It has a picture of God coming into the middle of the suffering. And the story of the cross again and again is the story of the God who loved us so much to come right into the middle of our world. Not in order to be sitting in a lordly palace organizing everybody nicely, but in order to come to the place where the the night was darkest and the pain was worst. Um and to take it upon himself. And you know a- a- any any family, anyone who lives in any sort of community, you know there are people hurting. There are people hurting who are close to you, people hurting you vaguely know in the surrounding community. The story of the Gospels is your story. Again and again, come and join with the people in the crowd who are watching as Jesus meets somebody who’s in distress, and then imagine Jesus turning to you and saying, “Now, what about you? Can we help you?” You never know what’s going to happen when you do that as a prayer exercise. Try walking with the two disciples on the road to Emmaus who are completely crushed, and who tell Jesus the story, “We thought he was the one who would redeem Israel, and now it’s all gone horribly wrong.” Well, when it’s gone horribly wrong, go for a walk with Jesus and tell him about it. >> Mhm. >> And then wait and see what might happen when he comes into the house with you and breaks the bread. And it never happens the same twice, but stuff does happen. And particularly, we were talking about this in the car just now, particularly there are these old prayers called the Psalms. Some people find them difficult because often the language is difficult and the concepts are not what we would expect, but actually pray the Psalms. Get used Get into the habit of praying the Psalms. Cuz the Psalms know all the joy there is in the world and all the sorrow that there is in the world and everything in between. And some of the Psalms take you so deep and so low that when I pray them, the only way I can relate to them is by thinking of people I know and situations in the world that I know where it really is that bad right now. And all I can do with that Psalm is to hold it in the presence of God. Here it is. And and and the psalmist knew about it. And the Psalms were Jesus’ prayer book. So, you know, we we we get to share Jesus’ prayers when we pray the Psalms. So, that that’s that’s a start, anyway. >> I think that’s more than a start. Very important. You’ve spent decades studying Jesus. Uh more particularly, you’ve spent decades coming to know him personally. Hm. After all this time, what still surprises you about him? >> Uh it’s a great question. Um and it comes and goes from day to day. But, I think you know, as now getting on in years, what still surprises me, even though I know it in theory and I’ve written about it, etc., is is his mercy. His utter graciousness. That having rescued us by grace, having saved us and nurtured us by grace, he doesn’t then turn around and say, “Okay, we’re now in the transaction mode.” Um I mean, of course, he wants us to serve him with our whole hearts, to be faithful and loyal and true and holy, etc. And of course, he is grieved when we do things and say things that grieve him. But, he is extraordinarily merciful. And I was talking last night, you heard me, about um the story of Peter in John 21, where Peter has let Jesus down badly. And Jesus says, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” And Peter can’t bring himself to say love. He says, “Lord, you know everything. You know, I’m your friend.” And as I said last night in a certain context, um you might expect Jesus to say, “Well, Peter, you really blew it big time. I’m not sure you can be one of the 12 anymore. Um but, we we’ve we’ve got a sort of 12-step rehab program lined up for people like you.” Um and we He doesn’t He says, “Feed my lambs.” The word of of forgiveness is also the word of commission. That’s what grace looks like. That’s what mercy looks like. And and I think you know, Peter was knocked back by that. I am still knocked back by that. >> Okay. Um we’re over time. Do you have it in you for one more? I’m afraid to ask him. You have one more? >> Sure. Cool. >> Okay. Um so I’ll I’ll I’ll say more about this in a minute. Um I have been asking him different questions throughout the day. But there was a a question that I asked you earlier today that I think I might reiterate. And it’s not because you need a do-over. Um it’s a question for you that was texted to me by our friend John Ortberg. And here it is. He said “With all the political polarization going on in America, how does the church point to Jesus and his values without getting partisan?” Now, I know I just went political. But we’ll just blame it on John Ortberg if this all goes off the rails, okay? So I I put this to you. I don’t know is an acceptable answer. >> If you want someone to blame it on, blame it on Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John because they’re telling the story of the kingdom of God. And in the first century when you’re talking about the kingdom of God, you’re not talk talking about a new style of spirituality. You’re not not talking about um how to go to heaven when you die. You’re talking about what does it look like when God becomes king on earth as in heaven. And we’re not talking about a There isn’t a vacuum. There isn’t a power vacuum here. Up the road there’s somebody called Herod who doesn’t like the thought of other people being kings. Herod Antipas, the Herod of the Gospels, his father, Herod the Great, um had many wives and many sons and and and many counselors around him. Half of them he’d killed because he thought they were plotting against him. That’s the kind of kingdom that Jesus’ family and friends knew. And way in Rome, but still very influential in Palestine, there is this man called Caesar, and his kingdom is run by brute force. When we’re talking about geopolitics, it’s it’s hugely difficult. Um you mentioned before, Mike Bird and I wrote a book called Jesus and the Powers, and if you want to follow that up, there’s a lot more in there than I can possibly say in a few sentences now. Um but the New Testament constantly puts to us the question, what does it mean that God is becoming king in the world when the God who is becoming king is the God we see revealed in Jesus, the one of suffering love, the one of rejoicing with the with the joyful and weeping with the weep with the with the miserable, the one who wept at the tomb of his friends. What would it look like if that God were to become king? And then, what would it look like if by his spirit he enabled us to be that sort of people for the world? Until we’ve asked that question, we have no right to think of ourselves as a Christian society, country, culture, anything. So often we just haven’t done that. In my country we think, “Oh well, Britain’s been Christian for many many years, and we had the Reformation, so now we have the Church of England, so that’s all written there somewhere, so we’re basically a Christian country, aren’t we?” And then when people say, “Oh no, but there’s lots of Muslims in our country.” That’s not the point. Have we been following the gospel? Have we been doing the Jesus stuff? Have we been living in the way that Jesus taught us? And yes, that will be subversive, and yes, some people will say it’s political. And some people will say, “Oh, render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s.” Yes, but then render to as though those were two totally different things. Of course, they are in your constitution, that’s your problem, not mine. Because of course, they’re not two different things. Caesar is a delegated down the track authority from the God who wants his world to be run wisely, in proper order, not in chaos. And Caesar will be judged by how he fulfills that commission. So, when we render to God what is God’s, the whole world is God’s holy land. And those who are God’s holy people must learn to live appropriately to that. Now, there’s all sorts of things that follow from that, which you could go into. But, uh when I was leaving I was sending my wife off to the airport cuz we were together in Houston, Texas, then she’s gone back home and I One of the things she routinely says to me when I come to America is, “Be careful what you say.” So, I hope I hope I haven’t gone too far. >> I I I think you did just fine. Friends, um we want to acquaint you with some of Dr. Wright’s resources. And so, um they because I believe I’m speaking to to this personally. I believe some of the things that he’s written and some of the things that he’s taught will really be an inspiration and a challenge to you in your own journey with Jesus and as you’re you’re figuring out how to join God in his work in your world. Um and and we want to put some of these resources in your hands. And so, I want you to to pay attention in the days ahead, capitalchurch.com will will posting some uh of these resources that you might want to check out. In fact, I might even tie to some of the questions that I’ve been asking through the day some of these resources because there’s usually a book or two or three behind a question that I’d ask. Um another thing, um we have a couple guests here today. And I can’t show you this on camera, those of you online, but it we have uh Dr. Steve Moore from the Veritas Forum who’s here today. And we have uh Dr. David Seamands. Um both are scholars in their own right. Uh Dr. Seamands created um uh a wonderful organization and platform called Ad Veritatem. Some of you are familiar with it. Um what he’s done is he’s created a way to make Dr. Wright’s teaching more accessible to all of us. We can’t go to Oxford and learn from him. Most of us can’t. If you can, FOMO, okay? But but um Dr. Seamands has created this incredible platform um for honestly a very low cost. You can essentially take a course on the Book of Ephesians from say say on the Book of Ephesians from Dr. Wright. It’s an unbelievably powerful resource. I’ve used it for years. Um what he’s done he uh this he sprung this on me today. Um he is going to give us a link that we will distribute to you so you can take an N.T. Wright course at no cost. Isn’t that lovely? Thank you. You’re a friend for your generosity to our church. Isn’t that wonderful? So be watching for him. We’ll post it online. Follow us on social media. We’ll say more about it there. Um Also, um uh outside of that one question that we’ll blame on John Ortberg, um I have asked him different questions at every one of our gatherings today. And so we are going to post we’ve recorded all of them. We’ll post them all online so you can all look back. Uh we talked about the theology of the resurrection in Park City earlier today here in Salt Lake. We talked about women in church leadership. Let’s go, huh? And so this is that’s a very important topic, friends. That’s a very important topic. And I’d love for you to to glean from his wisdom on the matter. So uh be watching for them. We’ll post those on social media as well. Um I I do want to say to you, friend, thank you for this. >> Thank you. >> This has been a real gift. I’m going to tear up here. >> Thank you very much. Very good to be here. >> to us as a community. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Thank you for joining us for this insightful conversation with Dr. N.T. Wright. Be sure to check out our other two interviews posted here online as well as our resources page to help you continue your discipleship to Jesus. You can find it in the description below. Grace and peace.