Dr. Carmen, one of the most controversial, difficult passages in the Bible is in Genesis chapter 3, verse 16 because it seems to imply that men should rule over or dominate women. Now, you’re an Old Testament scholar, so I want your take on this, but let me read it and then we’ll discuss it. >> Yep. >> It says, “To the woman he said, and this is a part of the consequences of the curse, >> I will surely multiply your pain and childbearing. In pain, you shall bring forth children. you your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you. >> Now I especially want your take as a woman for this. I think it will be really interesting. Before we get into your perspective on it, maybe tell us a little bit about are there different ways people take this passage? >> Yes, there are definitely different ways people take [laughter] this passage and I would say the two main views uh so so one view to to answer the question are men supposed to rule over women? Uh, one answer to that question would be yes. >> Okay. >> And I think that camp would say uh they would back up to chapter two and say God created Adam first and then Eve and that being created first is what gives Adam the priority over Eve and and shows that he’s in charge. And so built into the very creative act of God uh Adam supposed to be in charge. And sometimes uh scholars will cite primogenature as as the reason for that >> which is interesting. We can we can go into how how that fits and doesn’t fit. And then the other view would be to say no men are not supposed to rule over women because as you mentioned this is coming as a consequence of the fall. It’s not part of God’s creation design. And it could be argued that this is the first place where we have asymmetry or hierarchy between men and women in the Bible. So this is a consequence of the fall, not what God intended. So those are the two >> that makes total sense. Now this has implications for the egalitarian complimentarian debate. We won’t get into that. That will take a much longer video. But is there anything else about the p kind of the context of the passage here >> that would help us make sense of it? >> Yeah, I think uh it’s interesting to notice that the word uh where it talks about your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you. Different translations. I’m reading from the NIV. Different translations render that differently. Is this desire a good thing? Is it like you just you just want him to lead you, but he’s going to dominate you? Or is it you’re trying to overcome him and he’s going to overcome you back? Like what kind, you know, what is the dynamic here? And I tend to read it as um a as a negative thing because the same word desire appears in the next chapter. As sin is crouching at the door, it desires to have you. So I tend to see that desire as a negative thing that that the woman is trying to dominate the man and the man is trying to dominate her back that this is this kind of angst that comes into the picture is a result of sin and a result of the fall. So as you said a consequence. >> Okay. So your take on this is two reasons why this is kind of a negative thing is the word desire go to the next chapter >> refers to sinful desire and the context is this is what happens as a result of the fall not built in as God’s design >> that those are the two main factors that shape your interpretation. Okay. >> Yeah. And if we back up to chapter one where God says uh that he’s created humankind as his image and we’ve done another talk about that. >> We have. Yeah, >> about my book being God’s image. There it says that both male and female are the image of God. And both of them are told to rule, but the list of what they’re supposed to rule over is only the created beasts. Like it’s the fish and the birds and the uh the creatures, the livestock, the wild animals, and the creatures that move along the ground. So, humans are supposed to together collaborate to rule on God’s behalf. This is the first place where we get a human ruling over another human. >> Oh, so that’s interesting. And this we could go a whole another direction here, but the idea of Eve coming from Adam’s side as opposed to his foot. You would refer to other things that this is a partnership, a co-ruule that they are doing together. >> Yeah. >> Now, if we get to the New Testament, this is a whole separate conversation. What would that mean for being a pastor and for marriage? Separate issue. We’re just talking about here within Genesis itself. So tell us your preferred interpretation and why you take that interpretation. >> Yeah. I don’t I don’t find it persuasive that there’s hierarchy in chapter 2 between the man and the woman that there’s like already baked into the beginning a um sort of male leadership bent, but that I see that as a result of the fall. And I I mentioned primogenature. This is usually uh talked about in contexts where there’s there’s two sons born and it’s the older son who gets the inheritance, the larger share of the inheritance. And so for to to apply that to a husband wife situation seems a little strange because normally it’s about siblings inheriting not about husband and wife. >> Interesting. Also to argue that Adam is in charge because he was made first feels a little funny a in Genesis 2 because we’ve already had Genesis 1 in which humans were made last. >> So if we were going to if we were going to say first means you’re in charge then we’ve got uh fish and birds ruling over all of the [laughter] other creation including us. That’s fair. I had thought of it that way. I don’t know. I I think it’s not it’s certainly not a hard and fast rule. So the case would have to be made from the language being used that there’s something about Adam being created first that means he’s in charge. And a lot of people focus on verse 18, chapter 2 verse 18 where uh God says it’s not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him. And that sort of sounds again asymmetrical like she’s helping him accomplish what he wants. And and that I think is uh comes down to a word study of the word helper which is aer in Hebrew. The word Azer occurs as both a noun or a verb. Almost a hundred times in the Hebrew Bible. Half of those times it’s referring to God as Israel’s helper. >> Clearly, he’s not >> he’s not subservient to Israel. The other half of the occurrences are about a military ally who comes in to fight alongside you. >> So, it’s never the example of a lesser that one has power over. >> Yeah. There’s never a a case in which it’s describing what a servant does for a master or an employer for an employee employee for an employer. >> So I think the some some of the hierarchy that people see in chapter 2 I think maybe is more a matter of tradition uh that the tradition of how they’ve read it and been what they’ve been told it meant rather than like emerging from the Hebrew context itself. >> So I want to know why you think this interpretation matters. I’ll give you my take is two nights ago from the day we’re recording this I was at Calpali University having a dialogue with an atheist >> about the problem of evil >> and it was done students I mean surrounding me it was awesome some Christian students and one skeptical student >> really was leaning into how patriarchal the Bible is and I said there’s some passages in the New Testament that we need to pay attention to I’m not ignoring those >> but to me there’s two reasons why I think it’s not number one look at the example of Jesus There’s no other religious leader that I throughout history that I would trust my daughter with for a day >> even close to the person of Jesus. And you go down the line, Joseph Smith, Mohammed, Buddha abandoned his family. >> So that’s one reason, but second, go back to Genesis >> and you have God creates male and female. And as far as I understand, women were not ever or almost ever even mentioned in creation accounts. So the mention is powerful. Yep. >> From the side, like you said, who’s an equal. >> She’s also created last. You could argue creation first is significant, but it’s almost like I [laughter] mean, there might be something to that. >> In chapter one, last is best because humans come last, male and female. So then if we’re going to if we’re going to carry that forward into chapter 2, we get women as the crown of creation. >> I totally agree. I’ve heard Dennis Prager Jews say, “It’s almost like God is like, I’m done. I can’t do any better.” Now, as an apologist, it matters to me because I think the Bible profoundly from the beginning holds up the value and dignity of women. It does. >> Why does this passage matter to you? >> Yeah, it matters to me because I think for a lot of human history, there’s we we have just so many examples of tension and angst between men and women and and an exploitation of women that’s just, you know, every generation we see it surfacing again. And so if we read this verse as if God wants men to dominate women, then it seems to be putting a stamp of approval on these kind of negative patterns that we’ve seen through history. And I think that’s really dangerous. So uh I I think if we recognize this is a consequence of the fall, it’s never been God’s design for us to have this to for men to have a doineering relationship over women. As you said, the question of leadership, the question of the church is a separate question, but I think it does start here with what is God’s original vision? And his vision is for male and female to collaborate in carrying out his work in the world. >> I love it. We’re doing an entire uh series now on Sundays on difficult Old Testament passages. We’ve got you signed up for about seven or eight just in Genesis and Exodus alone. >> There’s a lot to talk about. >> So, I’m looking forward to our next one. Thank you. >> So, I’m going to ask you a tough question about your faith. How do you respond? 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